Hurting people.. can be either used wisely or used combatively depending on the circumstances. Several of my friends in high school were killed by drunk drivers. We all toasted to the bride and groom with a glass of champagne. Till I found TWW & SSB. Drunk driving wasnt just a one time incident, and drunk driving with kids in the car didnt happen just the once either. I just see the hope really being in getting people like him into treatment, and getting treatment/support for their family members. @ Velour: I cannot say Amen too many times to this. or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] re: Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit: This is not true. But yesterday I had to go back and let them look at a post-op problem that has arisen, and the delightful surgeon in the office who saw me was a man. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. RC sr. would have pontificated from on high with that authoritative voice the nonsense he often says, like he does with science, which he knows next to nothing about. I sustained a skull fracture (from which I could have died had I not undergone surgery quickly), broken toes, a broken pinky, as well as several fractured vertebrae in my neck. I remember how lonely I was when I first walked away from the spiritually toxic environment that I found in the inner circle of that church. My specific concern about Barbaras comment, and others like it, is thats NOT how substance abusers are supposed to be handled. I agree that he should be put out based on his ongoing chronic abuse behaviors, some behaviors that have not been mentioned here (including his abuse of alcohol which has put kids in harms way). To the contrary, this blog is littered with stories of the failings of 9 Marks, Acts 29, and a plethora of other churches who have inflicted great harm on people before hundreds if not thousands of people. Velour wrote: And even if they remain in their brand of the church, its a pretty poor imitation of Christianity: all surface appearance and no substance. I am so relieved to be out of my ex-NeoCalvinist church/cult too. You live in Louisiana, amirite? She and I part theological company. I should add Someone (I don't know who) has definitely enabled RC Jr to drink TO EXCESS. claimed that Al-Anon and sponsors tell people to separate from alcoholic spouses. I dont disagree with you that a drunkard also needs medical assistance to give up his addiction, and very likely would also benefit from mental health assistance to deal with other underlying issues he may have. are you far from there? Well, now look at this: pic.twitter.com/KBEkiBnVkG. I do agree that we have different views here. Perhaps she is basing it on much more than that. Thats the importance of getting them into treatmentand then waiting, praying, and not enabling. Velour wrote: Someone here posted months ago (and theyve done it several times) about a police officer at their church who was excommunicated and then committed suicide. None of the doctors ever diagnosed the root of my problem. Most, not all, have btdt with the Church. Let's see if RC Sproul, Jr. responds to my comment to him on FB: https://t.co/dOb0FR3YuC pic.twitter.com/he6sReOvPD, Julie Anne (@DefendTheSheep) March 27, 2019, Scout, Putting your own estimation of the weight of those actions simply show that you have a misperception of Gods holiness by thinking the bar of the law is set so low that your sins arent as repugnant as someone elses. Velour wrote: We all pretty much know what the ideal scenarios are for alcoholics. RC2 has not been a humble, exemplary church leader. Has that been reported on or discussed? I didnt consider Barbaras post to be nasty to you. I was responding to her about that. Thats just not cool. More of Anne Lamotts conversion story: http://ontopofgiants.blogspot.com/2012/06/anne-lamott-on-her-conversion-to.html. He is not a strong man, apparently. I havent even been posting much to this blog in the last few months. I erred in previously responding with, As far as anyone can tell it hasnt been reported on. Spinderella Sproul has reported on this but the specifics on RC Jrs probation terms seemingly been difficult to come up with. Many resources already exist and are perfectly fine. That night, he was literally set free 30 years later, I still communicate with him he is not the alcoholic he feared he would become. I am furious at how our culture tolerates substance abuse as much as we do. His ethanol-fueled rant in the back seat of that cop car got described as Instant A-hole; Just Add Alcohol.. @Velour, didnt you just say, We really need to drop it as this point.? He allegedly also served children alcohol. (but then, in certain christian circles, mocking for all sorts of things seems to be endemic, which is a possibly related problem). Velour wrote: I think its a huge problem that he is still in ministry. developing an alchoholic psychosis), then they have to have help to be restored enough to MAKE a decision about if they want to go forward in a good direction or not. Maybe she was advocating for it to be done in public (? I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. I can never forget the dead that were dragged in off I-95 into our ER. Im not seeing how sitting in a church building once a week listening to sermons treats things such as depression or alcoholism. I was answering your question to me and what Barbara wrote to H.U.G. Cultural/societal/political issues are at play in all of life. his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. We went over this last night. The question is whether anyone close to him (a) loves him enough to do the confrontation and (b) understands enough to do it well. You havent talked to everyone (not even close) so how could you make such assumptions? I dont think he should. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. I am not the one who is talking about diagnosis or treatment variables. They and their families are all the better for it. It had such a devastating impact on my husband that he doesn't drink alcohol. I am opposed to hauling out the hurting people argument when and if it is an incorrect application of the idea for several reasons. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! By the way, I am agnostic on the topic of if an alcoholic should be kicked out of church or not. or a reviler, [verbal attack, slander, violent language]. Its almost as if their sinful exploits give them more street cred, and justify their continued sin. Julie Anne reminded me about the path RC-Jr took, after MY post previously. is someone who could benefit from Al-Anon too, for the family and friends of problem drinkers. In my recent bout with serious pain from psoriatic arthritis, I found that 4 oz. . Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists, & reminding people to give, if they can, to help those in need on TWW, also giving of her own resources. It works some of the time. I need to be careful to look to Scripture for my measure of Gods Law for sin, not taking the measure from what people and tradition may say sin is. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. I cannot even imagine that a church would have no means of church discipline at all, the world being what it is and scripture saying what it does. youll follow his example. so terrifying. Staying in it helps no-one, including himself. So he may have already been to treatment. Unfortunately four funerals.We always felt that we were so blessed that God had chosen to use us in this way. Sorry to be repetitive, but I am having a difficult time working up sympathy for this guy after reading about what he does and how he treats people. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions. Those two do not go together. but I thought most Christian people understood that Christ is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (God) and that a Person died on the Cross. Yes, it is helpless to watch people on a path of self-destruction. I grew up in a verbally abusive family, so I have been here before. I quoted this post because it has both your posts in it. No one has said we shouldnt try. Seen too many neglected children, too many doormat wives, too many run ins with family members, cops, late night contentious phone calls, etc , etc. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. Putting the focus on Sprouls alcoholism getting him into treatment, support groups, counseling, church support, etc. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. Those cannot be used as an excuse. It is difficult to watch someone you care about who seems bent on a path of self-destruction, and be helpless to do anything but pray. So I was only saying what the Bible says. We heard stories of them being looked down on because a son or daughter was involved in drugs, alcohol, sex and other issues. Velour wrote: 1. a serial killer, Yes, it is helpless to watch people on a path of self-destruction. God was with my parents & gracious to them in very different ways. She couldnt help it that she forgot so quickly. The very people he ridiculed recovering alcoholics will probably be the first ones to help him. The only way he could/would ever do this would be by the power of God giving him the grace and strength. In the meantime, here is the link: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. I didnt even over-eat. R.C. Login to find your connection. I take Barbara and what she stated. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. I got the idea that the commenter thought it was a pity that there hadnt been any earlier DUIs, because the judge would not have let him off so easily if there had been a past record. It was a general comment about a general topic which has been discussed before and no doubt will be again. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. ; but it seems that Velour is like Christ n her desire to see this man reconciled in his relationship to God and with his fellow man. In fact, putting him out of the church may prompt him to truly hit bottom so he realises that he MUST get help and he takes serious steps, ongoing efforts, to get the help he needs. But her children have been wounded and scarred. He got a $350 fine and 250 hours of community service. All together they give the whole picture of how church leaders are supposed to deal with this type of situation. Sproul, Sr.). He has suffered tragedies, yes. she advises women who are VA victims to be very cautious when choosing a MHP because most MHPs are ignorant about VA. Wow. Yep, that is one tried and true strategy for the non-drinkers. I have and it can be a beautiful thing. The scars are still there but not that noticeable. I never found any of that helpful in coping with depression, anxiety, or grief after my mother died. Sure enough, car driving very slowly and deliberately down the wrong side of the street. I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! We cant assume they cant be helped, no. Barbaras focus is on how the church should deal with it, how to deal with someone whos chronically misbehaving, which is a separate topic from how and when should someone receive medical attention for a problem. and putting things into strong ideas with smooth words along with the willingness to step in and do that from time to time. Just that God, even when I was doubting him the most, was faithful.). Why not? The Pittsburgh Press. Sigh. Also, we know both vehicles were traveling at 60 mph upon impact. Isnt it ironic (and beyond sad) that this thread IS about a church leader. I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. . But to take that info and post it here? Abuse is a different issue. So here it is. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. Yes, the pain is awful. We asked to leave by the end of the month. to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . You didnt, however, explain your reasoning for such a drastic step. Steven King, recovering alcoholic Ah, but by their theology, he also bears a certain immunity. I could have had my mother die at home like she begged and that is a sin I will never forgive myself for. Thanks Refugee for your feedback. My hubby and his eight siblings suffered severely under their fathers alcoholism.the youngest is now 55, but the emotional scars linger. So for creating a scandal he got a ten month paid holiday. We agree on your closing statement, Velour. You have no clue what I know about substance abuse, 12-step programs, etc, based on my comments here. If a person professing to be a Christian and is a drunkard (i.e. You cannot reason with them because they quite literally cannot think straight. But I was just there, I was always there never moving not flinching no matter what I was there. Fried chicken yes, but fried chicken livers, no. JYJames, thank you so much for posting that scripture reference and the phrases in it. I love them dearly & only wish they could have the love & grace that you & your church offered to her. Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to NEVER drink and drive. The objective and end goal must always be repentance unto restoration. There doesnt appear to be any agreement in their doctrines at all. Then the plea deal is even worse than listed. No, I definitely do support them. The best thing for him and those in his orbit, his incarceration. Im impressed to now discover that there are multiple Celebrate Recovery groups in the Ft. Wayne area: http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/ I hope that you will encounter those like me whose lives have been forever impacted by this particular sin. and me: Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). They will also confront you with a dose of reality about alcoholics. You know how to contact her. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants. Yes, that daughter needs HELP!!! I dont think many people in American culture know what to make of people who go to social functions and dont stand around with a drink. Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R Sproul 2, including in keeping his job. Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. Two or three witnesses principle. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. I always encourage people who need help to see professionals. No, apparently all were agreement from the very beginning. I stay and take the good with the bad. My trying to save him from the pain of his choices only made things worse. I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be violated in any way.. Velour wrote: And Velour, theres no need to go over the issues again. Sin is cosmic treason against The Holy God. I think God understands this. Robert Charles Sproulcalled by his parents R. C. Sproul IIIwas born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, on February 13, 1939, the second child of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann Sproul. But the life of our loved ones is at stake. . Some of us have been on the receiving end of RCs lies and manipulations, so its not just speculation. Velour wrote: For R.C. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. I am simply trying to understand how sitting in a church service once or twice a week can address the issues of alcoholism, depression, a sore throat, or anything else how can sitting in church heal a person of those things? which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. The surgeons would tell you pregnancy is a disease, My son-in-law says that my love for fried chicken livers is a sickness.. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. His boozing and chronic bully behavior was going on long before the family tragedies. But one thing I learned a long time ago is that if I really love them Ill let them suffer the consequences of their actions. an invitation to share his/her story. Once again, you are a bit strong. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. I would dearly love to avoid the aforesaid black hole, and so I wont attach this point to any particular name, but I agree with it: if indeed Mr Sprouls executive oversight of the organisation is as it has been described here, then alcohol is one more reason he needs to be removed, not just as CEO, but from membership of the organisation. My own experience with a probable was one night when I was going down Orange Ave in Anaheim at night. I was trying to offer some even-handed commentary. But putting him out of the church does not stop him getting that assistance. I am not in that camp as that is an extreme position and there is much more that is known now about helping people with addictions. Ive known some recovering alcoholics to go back to churches and to speak before the entire church about the damage they did to so many peoples lives, as well as make personal amends to people that they have harmed. @ brian: which guy of those 3 would you choose to be stuck with? Haha. H.A. I do not believe that an addict should be thrown out of church.There is afterall a disease involved, but a church should not enable. My FIL quit drinking, stayed sober 30 years. It should also be noted that removing someone from the church, for a time, does not mean they are declared an unbeliever. Of course he needs treatment, but there are far more people harmed by his chronic abuse behavior from his position behind the pulpit as pastor. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. Velour, is there anything in our conversation that has triggered an old experience for you? R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. Church Discipline We are called in the Bible to many other things, including loving one another, bearing each others burdens, than simply kicking people out who arent like us. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. ), We tell our readers that we prefer them not to use the word codependent when describing victims of domestic abuse. (Is this still considered true? I was always scared stiff riding with him, literally praying all the way home, and I didnt even know the Lord then. Does he have other actual convictions for DUIs or endangering the children? In my part of the U.S. we thankfully have a variety of lost-cost medical clinics that include psychiatric services. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Im not contesting that. There is no gradual progression or build-up. Hes also working with the homeless as part of our parish outreach ( i.e service to others). My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. This Is NOT a Parody! One or two DUIs is usually not enough. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? I wore a wig to school for about 6 months until my hair grew out enough that I wasnt ashamed of how I looked. He is survived by his wife, Vesta, their two children, Sherrie Dorotiak and Robert Craig Sproul, eleven grandchildren, and seven great-grandchildren. But as others have said, if he doesnt go into treatment voluntarily and want to get help, it will do no good. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. Ill also know when I start to hear from some of the others he did the same to and they let me know hes confessed and repented to them too. Aha. The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. We dont need to be accepting alcohol abuse at any level merely because it may be a disease. I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. Scroll down to the bottom of the post. That is them saying that, not me. The Bible says that Christ Jesus went about healing all who were oppressed of the devil. There is still much distress on this thread, but it does my heart good to see people trying to find common ground. @ Velour: We will do almost anything to aid recovery, but we will not enable alcoholism. How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? A friend had invited me to go to the beach for a fun weekend with her and her parents. Velour wrote: Obviously, alcohol can cause neurological trauma, but it is unreal the amount of alcohol the people I saw who actually ended up in the hospital were drinking. Im not so keen to hold the church up as a solution to anyone for any reason. So let me start. I know several individuals who consume large amounts of alcohol on a regular basis and seem to have normal lives and hold down great jobs or are self employed. Personally, I choose to abstain, and I wish everyone wouldn't complicate their lives with it at all. But sometimes thats where we end up. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. @ Barbara Roberts: Thank God it was always so late, thus basically no traffic. 4. The scene was an absolute tidal wave of love. And I have contempt when people excuse and tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse of any kind; that helps no one. At the time Jr. was unmarried and although he knew that she was my wife, he came on to her more than once. I think its the same person. And let me say one more time-you are so good at this kind of thing. @ okrapod: When I was a month away from turning 13, I was invited by a friend to go to Myrtle Beach with her and her parents. We now approach these matters much more like a spiritual team and have developed richer relationships not dependent on being part of the organization. Then again for a period of time in my life I bought into leaders like these. Today children would be removed from such an environment, but in the deep deep South 60 years ago this was not the case. I know the story, but need someone willing to come forward, even anonymously. Not saying you are wrong JY, but if you read the entire chapter, including the beginning of chapter six, Paul references the assembly as well, and turning over to Satan. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. Its hard to play the empathy card with this clown. He boasts about it in his Ligonier Tales with no regret, remorse or embarrassment expressed. Shes getting her information, plus a lot of spin, from RC Jr. Id also add that AA, in the case of one of my family members, after he stopped drinking, contributed to his so-called stinking thinking.. The legal issue with Sproul 2 is that he wasnt diverted to the substance abuse court which dealt with misdemeanors and he was being charged with felonies. I cant imagine the pain and loss you experienced. Outpatient treatment is not a bad thing. I grew up in a verbally abusive family, so I have been here before. Other people were subjected to the same treatment. That prison sentence was suspended and he was remanded to 1 year active adult probation. Spinderella Sproul web article. With respect, you still didn't quote this correctly. Perhaps if nothing else RC Sproul Sr. shielded and protected his son due his son having his same name and thus the sons actions tarnishing the fathers name. I get that church is not just a building, its people. Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? True. The story that Friend posted about the love, care, concern, and inclusion that their church and clergy gave to a woman alcoholic member is a testament to the Gospel at work. I know its hard, I do cry for strength, I dont always like him for the damage done to our family. I would agree the church in the dark ages had a very bad reputation when it came to church discipline, Spanish Inquisition and all that. It turned out to be rum. I think what I am trying yo say is each person stands before God on his/her own.were we guilty of our sons choices,? Even though they were on the same comment, i didnt mean to apply that brown comment to your situation, but generally to the use of alcohol to dull pain. I was very clear that R.C. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. You sure about that? I will NEVER get over the fact that a drunk driver took away my friends parents in a split second when she was just 13. job loss). The writer Anne Lamott, a recovering alcoholic, writes about going to a black church in Northern California when Anne was not sober. I love them dearly & only wish they could have the love & grace that you & your church offered to her. His fowl testimony presumes a repeat performance. I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. He was a success story. 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Have btdt with the church and getting treatment/support for their family members are declared an.! The root of my ex-NeoCalvinist church/cult too of those 3 would you choose to abstain, others... Hope really being in getting people like him for the non-drinkers about going to a church that has such Ages. In all of life arthritis, i suggest you read the verses i gave ( Cor... And the phrases in it have developed richer relationships not dependent on being part of the church as... Not been a humble, exemplary church leader dead that were dragged off... Were so blessed that God, even when i was doubting him the grace and strength school were killed impact. Reasoning for such a statement the car didnt happen just the once either he boasts about it in orbit.
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